Jiglu: BLOKART-NZ: Discussion: 5.5 meter sails

Hi All,

My 2 cents.

There are two points which I would like to make.

These are new sails and the full potential of these sails has not been realised yet. For example, a middleweight is already running a 5.5m up to 15 knots of wind in America before changing to a 4m. This may seem wrong to you, but come the worlds he will most likely be using it and if he wins the class what are you going to say then! Everyone may need to get 5.5 meter sail.

Secondly the cost of being competitive even locally has potentially just risen $1200 - $1400 dollars which maybe fine for some of us out there but others are going to drop out of the sport due to the high cost. The BBC has already lost members to the increasing costs of competing and losing more members over 5.5m sails is not what I want. If you wanted to start blokart sailing competitively and brought a new kart you would be looking at a cost of $8000+ to set up. This is far to high in my opinion for a new sport that relies on the wind, which means you are not guaranteed to sail on any given weekend. Spare time is becoming more precious to all of us.

So a solution I can see to keep the sport of blokart strong in NZ clubs:

If you actually look at your club and say how many members from your club would go to the next world champs if they were held in Europe. Even the BBC with a strong travelling group of members may get 7 going in reality, so they can race at those events under the international equipment rules. I would suggest we redefine the performance equipment rules ideally for NZ within the NZBAI but at least at club level to excluded 5.5 meter sails and potential other performance equipment to make the competitive side of the sport a reasonable price to get into, keeping our clubs strong and everyone with a fair chance of winning at a reasonable cost at a local level and maybe even the nationals.

So from the BBC point of view the question to be discussed at the next committee meeting is a complete ban on 5.5’s or ban for all, other than supers and offer a financing deal to the supers to make sure all of our supers have a 5.5 meter sail.

Something to think about

Richard

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Well Said Richard, Club protection is very important, even Nationally also, but when its us against the world then….bring out all the armoury.

2 cents!! Petrol companies must be very…..don’t know the word…. They are always putting in more their 2c worth.

Cheers,

Don

I’m off fishing!!

From: Richard Harrison [mailto:...]
Sent: Saturday, May 17, 2008 9:00 PM
To: ...
Subject: [blokart] 5.5 meter sails

Hi All,

My 2 cents.

There are two points which I would like to make.

These are new sails and the full potential of these sails has not been realised yet. For example, a middleweight is already running a 5.5m up to 15 knots of wind in America before changing to a 4m. This may seem wrong to you, but come the worlds he will most likely be using it and if he wins the class what are you going to say then! Everyone may need to get 5.5 meter sail.

Secondly the cost of being competitive even locally has potentially just risen $1200 - $1400 dollars which maybe fine for some of us out there but others are going to drop out of the sport due to the high cost. The BBC has already lost members to the increasing costs of competing and losing more members over 5.5m sails is not what I want. If you wanted to start blokart sailing competitively and brought a new kart you would be looking at a cost of $8000+ to set up. This is far to high in my opinion for a new sport that relies on the wind, which means you are not guaranteed to sail on any given weekend. Spare time is becoming more precious to all of us.

So a solution I can see to keep the sport of blokart strong in NZ clubs:

If you actually look at your club and say how many members from your club would go to the next world champs if they were held in Europe. Even the BBC with a strong travelling group of members may get 7 going in reality, so they can race at those events under the international equipment rules. I would suggest we redefine the performance equipment rules ideally for NZ within the NZBAI but at least at club level to excluded 5.5 meter sails and potential other performance equipment to make the competitive side of the sport a reasonable price to get into, keeping our clubs strong and everyone with a fair chance of winning at a reasonable cost at a local level and maybe even the nationals.

So from the BBC point of view the question to be discussed at the next committee meeting is a complete ban on 5.5’s or ban for all, other than supers and offer a financing deal to the supers to make sure all of our supers have a 5.5 meter sail.

Something to think about

Richard

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The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com

www.jigluhood.com – communities that think for themselves

I have been quite up until this point on the 5.5m issue, watching intently on the dicussion.

Its actually quite ammusing watching two themes develop

Theme 1 - Allow the 5.5m sails as part of the kit as per the rules. (note these are the rules that "we" the blokarting community entrusted the IBRA to develop)

The rule is very clear as written in that it does allow them once they have been available for 3 months (which I believe was the start of Feb 08) .

The Auckland club took the sensible approach and since their post xmas season had started decided to postpone the introduction until their next season

Theme 2 - Ban them or if we are forced to have them can they be only for the super heavy weights. Interestingly the people that have suggested this so far have been the super heavies (whats the story with that, do they think they are superior so only they can use them!)

These people get even more interesting as they try to bring in all sorts of excuses in order to try to ban them.

Using Richards first analogy refering to Sean Fidler using a 5.5m up to 15knots.... "if he wins what will you all say then!" well the answer would surely be "good on him" he managed to develop the use of the sail better than any one else. And thats a bad thing?

Then they goe on to cost. At then end of the day the cost is not that bad compared to other sports even at $8000. Find another sport that can hit 60km/hr for under $8k. Besides this sport has gone on for a few years now (6 years ?) and this has been the only major change. We still see karts of 4 or 5 years winning, we still see sails of 4 years winning. We still see sailors who have bought 2nd hand karts winning races and we still see people spending not much and going out and having FUN. Surely $1500 is not too bad for the small percentage that actually want to be able to sail and race properly in under 12 knots

With this new sail it does virtually guarantee that we can sail every weekend, just like our (also wind dependent) friends on the water.

Subsidising 5.5m.. well that is something that could be looked at, but then again, if you subsidize it via membership fees, then the end user is paying anyway!

At the end of the day, I personally dont see the fun is just hooning around... Racing gives it the fun factor (for me any way). This sail allows us to race in lighter breeze. Other say they dont like to race in under 8 knots, as it doesnt bring skill into it.. well then why are the same people in front 80% of the time? I would be up for a rule like if the leader is scuffing it gets called off and sail in all winds. Think of it in the reverse of normal is it fair on them if they are good enough to sail the course and show that they really are the best. I say no bottom limit for a race (or maybe 4 knots), just sail and stop bitching when the people in front can sail, but you cant.

At the end of the day, they are legal for the worlds as grant pointed out. If a club was to ban them locally that fine. And Dons idea of bring out the armory for the worlds is fine too. But if the club did ban them, and we went to the worlds and got our butts kick cause we didnt know that the 5.5m was quicker in 12 to 15knots then we would look pretty dumb, considering that they were developed in our back yard with our input.

Well that was more than 2cents worth, but that TAX for you... looks like 5.5m opinions are going to hit $2 soon.

Ross

Please don't take offense to my rant... it was just that... a rant!

Richard Harrison <...> said:
Hi All,

My 2 cents.

There are two points which I would like to make.

These are new sails and the full potential of these sails has not been
realised yet. For example, a middleweight is already running a 5.5m up to
15 knots of wind in America before changing to a 4m. This may seem wrong to
you, but come the worlds he will most likely be using it and if he wins the
class what are you going to say then! Everyone may need to get 5.5 meter
sail.

Secondly the cost of being competitive even locally has potentially just
risen $1200 – $1400 dollars which maybe fine for some of us out there but
others are going to drop out of the sport due to the high cost. The BBC has
already lost members to the increasing costs of competing and losing more
members over 5.5m sails is not what I want. If you wanted to start blokart
sailing competitively and brought a new kart you would be looking at a cost
of $8000+ to set up. This is far to high in my opinion for a new sport that
relies on the wind, which means you are not guaranteed to sail on any given
weekend. Spare time is becoming more precious to all of us.

So a solution I can see to keep the sport of blokart strong in NZ clubs:

If you actually look at your club and say how many members from your club
would go to the next world champs if they were held in Europe. Even the BBC
with a strong travelling group of members may get 7 going in reality, so
they can race at those events under the international equipment rules. I
would suggest we redefine the performance equipment rules ideally for NZ
within the NZBAI but at least at club level to excluded 5.5 meter sails and
potential other performance equipment to make the competitive side of the
sport a reasonable price to get into, keeping our clubs strong and everyone
with a fair chance of winning at a reasonable cost at a local level and
maybe even the nationals.

So from the BBC point of view the question to be discussed at the next
committee meeting is a complete ban on 5.5's or ban for all, other than
supers and offer a financing deal to the supers to make sure all of our
supers have a 5.5 meter sail.

Something to think about

Richard

Attached poll: 5.5m Ban or not?

Ban for all

1 votes

Ban for all but superheavies

1 votes

Allow for all.

8 votes

Total: 10 votes. Poll closed at 08:54 on Sunday, 1 June 2008.

I have been watching this debate with interest. What happened to the principle of a Blokart that they were "one off design". Same thing happened in dingy racing as mods came into the act, if you could afford the changes you went with it, if not you were left behind. Simple solution is to sanction the use of 5.5's for anyone, BUT have seperate races. Now it becomes "weight for weight"; "sail for sail" and down to skipper ability. Tee Bee

Ross Vickers <...> said:
I have been quite up until this point on the 5.5m issue, watching
intently on the dicussion.
Its actually quite ammusing watching two themes develop
Theme 1 – Allow the 5.5m sails as part of the kit as per the rules.
(note these are the rules that "we" the blokarting community entrusted
the IBRA to develop)
The rule is very clear as written in that it does allow them once they
have been available for 3 months (which I believe was the start of Feb
08) .
The Auckland club took the sensible approach and since their post xmas
season had started decided to postpone the introduction until their next
season
Theme 2 – Ban them or if we are forced to have them can they be only for
the super heavy weights. Interestingly the people that have suggested
this so far have been the super heavies (whats the story with that, do
they think they are superior so only they can use them!)
These people get even more interesting as they try to bring in all sorts
of excuses in order to try to ban them.
Using Richards first analogy refering to Sean Fidler using a 5.5m up to
15knots…. "if he wins what will you all say then!" well the answer
would surely be "good on him" he managed to develop the use of the sail
better than any one else. And thats a bad thing?
Then they goe on to cost. At then end of the day the cost is not that
bad compared to other sports even at $8000. Find another sport that can
hit 60km/hr for under $8k. Besides this sport has gone on for a few
years now (6 years ?) and this has been the only major change. We still
see karts of 4 or 5 years winning, we still see sails of 4 years
winning. We still see sailors who have bought 2nd hand karts winning
races and we still see people spending not much and going out and having
FUN. Surely $1500 is not too bad for the small percentage that actually
want to be able to sail and race properly in under 12 knots
With this new sail it does virtually guarantee that we can sail every
weekend, just like our (also wind dependent) friends on the water.
Subsidising 5.5m.. well that is something that could be looked at, but
then again, if you subsidize it via membership fees, then the end user
is paying anyway!
At the end of the day, I personally dont see the fun is just hooning
around… Racing gives it the fun factor (for me any way). This sail
allows us to race in lighter breeze. Other say they dont like to race in
under 8 knots, as it doesnt bring skill into it.. well then why are the
same people in front 80% of the time? I would be up for a rule like if
the leader is scuffing it gets called off and sail in all winds. Think
of it in the reverse of normal is it fair on them if they are good
enough to sail the course and show that they really are the best. I say
no bottom limit for a race (or maybe 4 knots), just sail and stop
bitching when the people in front can sail, but you cant.
At the end of the day, they are legal for the worlds as grant pointed
out. If a club was to ban them locally that fine. And Dons idea of bring
out the armory for the worlds is fine too. But if the club did ban them,
and we went to the worlds and got our butts kick cause we didnt know
that the 5.5m was quicker in 12 to 15knots then we would look pretty
dumb, considering that they were developed in our back yard with our
input.
Well that was more than 2cents worth, but that TAX for you… looks like
5.5m opinions are going to hit $2 soon.
Ross
Please don't take offense to my rant… it was just that… a rant!
Richard Harrison <...> said:
Hi All,
My 2 cents.
There are two points which I would like to make.
These are new sails and the full potential of these sails has not been
realised yet. For example, a middleweight is already running a 5.5m up
to
15 knots of wind in America before changing to a 4m. This may seem
wrong to
you, but come the worlds he will most likely be using it and if he wins
the
class what are you going to say then! Everyone may need to get 5.5
meter
sail.
Secondly the cost of being competitive even locally has potentially just
risen $1200 – $1400 dollars which maybe fine for some of us out there
but
others are going to drop out of the sport due to the high cost. The BBC
has
already lost members to the increasing costs of competing and losing
more
members over 5.5m sails is not what I want. If you wanted to start
blokart
sailing competitively and brought a new kart you would be looking at a
cost
of $8000+ to set up. This is far to high in my opinion for a new sport
that
relies on the wind, which means you are not guaranteed to sail on any
given
weekend. Spare time is becoming more precious to all of us.
So a solution I can see to keep the sport of blokart strong in NZ clubs:
If you actually look at your club and say how many members from your
club
would go to the next world champs if they were held in Europe. Even the
BBC
with a strong travelling group of members may get 7 going in reality,
so
they can race at those events under the international equipment rules.
I
would suggest we redefine the performance equipment rules ideally for
NZ
within the NZBAI but at least at club level to excluded 5.5 meter sails
and
potential other performance equipment to make the competitive side of
the
sport a reasonable price to get into, keeping our clubs strong and
everyone
with a fair chance of winning at a reasonable cost at a local level and
maybe even the nationals.
So from the BBC point of view the question to be discussed at the next
committee meeting is a complete ban on 5.5's or ban for all, other than
supers and offer a financing deal to the supers to make sure all of our
supers have a 5.5 meter sail.
Something to think about
Richard

Ross didn't mention that he has attached a poll. Please vote.

How about those with the skills to sail in 5 knots pass some of their secrets on so the rest of us can sail as well? Problem fixed.(Howls of "Yeah Right" from Hayden, Russell, etc) :-)

Rather than a wind limit perhaps a speed limit is a way to go? With an electronic timing system and a known length of the course its easy to calculate the average lap speed. The first 4 or competitors in a race have to be lapping at over 5km/hr. i.e faster than can be achieved by wheeling…. (This can be worked the other way as well. Having a maximum lap time for the top 4 competitors.)

In my last post I wasn't suggesting to limit the sail choice of any sailor. I just don't want to see the Super Heavies missing out because the light weights are sailing with a 5.5m and they can't get moving.

For the cost argument please consider the following. If you were buying your entire set up again with 2 sails – would you buy a 3 and 4 or 4 and 5.5? In which case the cost increase from 3 -> 5.5 is around $500. Already got a 3m and need a 5.5? -> the joys of being first in. I believe that most people should be able to get good use of the equipment with 2 sails. The super competitive would have a 3rd sail.

With BK Heaven Paul etc has figured out on light days the wind passes across in waves. In which case waiting 10 mins for the wind to be constant means starting the race with the wind dropping. Starting a race when the wind is starting to pick up is the way to go.

I think this topic deserves some good discussion on the issues. Keep it coming. :-)

Off to BPP now to practise light wind sailing.

Cheers
Nick ABC 37

"flatulating cow on a blokart would probably have beaten me." LOL. So much for a carbon neutral / global warming neutral sport… perhaps I should have baked beans for lunch.

Just back from the Boat Show – checking out the new toys. Having owned a variety of powered and sail craft the only thing that took my fancy was the 2 person submarine. But at $35,000 and a good wait until they come out of production that wasn’t an option. Plus getting to somewhere to use it and needing a day like today to use it....well – I don’t know.

Then I appreciated what a great toy a blokart is. Excitement, cheap to run, great people to sail with – what more could you want? I looked outside the show – no wind, water ski? – got that but need a minimum of 3 people, Jet Ski (over that), go fishing (too much sun), gin palace (can’t justify the gas), 5.5 m sail – whoo hoo! Probably would have bought one if blokart was at the show. But 6 knots is the best wind speed I can find anywhere in Auckland at the moment – perhaps it will come up? Might be a challenge even for a 5.5m. But I went sailing last weekend, the weekend before, and the 100 km before that, and two weeks before that on another 100 Km attempt. If this was a boat I’d need an engine overhaul! Bangs per buck this looks pretty good to me!

Now I’m thinking like Sean – what wind speed can I sail a 5.5m to?

Let’s remember that the 5.5m came into being because of user demand and the 5.5 (unlike the spinnaker) was actually practical.

Remember when we all couldn’t justify the Pod and people had “dirt skirts” and home made Pods, some of which were definitely capable of being lethal in a crash. Now most have Pods.

This is “One Design”, not “One-off” design. We’ve seen a carbon fibre frame, but that is going too far at the moment.

The IBRA and BAI represent the users. 10% of blokart owners probably belong to a club. A lot of that 10% race, and let’s face it two blokarts being sailed side by side is a race.

The idea of a separate class is interesting. Like when the Laser Radial sail came out? Growing club membership is definitely what the clubs and BAI are here for. We can’t make everyone happy but we can try.

I see from a flash on the screen that Nick has just sent an email saying Ross has added a poll. I was going to suggest that – will check that out and stop rambling.

Cheers

Grant

From: Tony Bourne [mailto:...]
Sent: Sunday, 18 May 2008 12:26 p.m.
To: BLOKART-NZ
Subject: Re: [blokart] 5.5 meter sails

I have been watching this debate with interest. What happened to the principle of a Blokart that they were "one off design". Same thing happened in dingy racing as mods came into the act, if you could afford the changes you went with it, if not you were left behind. Simple solution is to sanction the use of 5.5's for anyone, BUT have seperate races. Now it becomes "weight for weight"; "sail for sail" and down to skipper ability. Tee Bee

Ross Vickers <...> said:
I have been quite up until this point on the 5.5m issue, watching
intently on the dicussion.
Its actually quite ammusing watching two themes develop
Theme 1 – Allow the 5.5m sails as part of the kit as per the rules.
(note these are the rules that "we" the blokarting community entrusted
the IBRA to develop)
The rule is very clear as written in that it does allow them once they
have been available for 3 months (which I believe was the start of Feb
08) .
The Auckland club took the sensible approach and since their post xmas
season had started decided to postpone the introduction until their next
season
Theme 2 – Ban them or if we are forced to have them can they be only for
the super heavy weights. Interestingly the people that have suggested
this so far have been the super heavies (whats the story with that, do
they think they are superior so only they can use them!)
These people get even more interesting as they try to bring in all sorts
of excuses in order to try to ban them.
Using Richards first analogy refering to Sean Fidler using a 5.5m up to
15knots…. "if he wins what will you all say then!" well the answer
would surely be "good on him" he managed to develop the use of the sail
better than any one else. And thats a bad thing?
Then they goe on to cost. At then end of the day the cost is not that
bad compared to other sports even at $8000. Find another sport that can
hit 60km/hr for under $8k. Besides this sport has gone on for a few
years now (6 years ?) and this has been the only major change. We still
see karts of 4 or 5 years winning, we still see sails of 4 years
winning. We still see sailors who have bought 2nd hand karts winning
races and we still see people spending not much and going out and having
FUN. Surely $1500 is not too bad for the small percentage that actually
want to be able to sail and race properly in under 12 knots
With this new sail it does virtually guarantee that we can sail every
weekend, just like our (also wind dependent) friends on the water.
Subsidising 5.5m.. well that is something that could be looked at, but
then again, if you subsidize it via membership fees, then the end user
is paying anyway!
At the end of the day, I personally dont see the fun is just hooning
around… Racing gives it the fun factor (for me any way). This sail
allows us to race in lighter breeze. Other say they dont like to race in
under 8 knots, as it doesnt bring skill into it.. well then why are the
same people in front 80% of the time? I would be up for a rule like if
the leader is scuffing it gets called off and sail in all winds. Think
of it in the reverse of normal is it fair on them if they are good
enough to sail the course and show that they really are the best. I say
no bottom limit for a race (or maybe 4 knots), just sail and stop
bitching when the people in front can sail, but you cant.
At the end of the day, they are legal for the worlds as grant pointed
out. If a club was to ban them locally that fine. And Dons idea of bring
out the armory for the worlds is fine too. But if the club did ban them,
and we went to the worlds and got our butts kick cause we didnt know
that the 5.5m was quicker in 12 to 15knots then we would look pretty
dumb, considering that they were developed in our back yard with our
input.
Well that was more than 2cents worth, but that TAX for you… looks like
5.5m opinions are going to hit $2 soon.
Ross
Please don't take offense to my rant… it was just that… a rant!
Richard Harrison <...> said:
Hi All,
My 2 cents.
There are two points which I would like to make.
These are new sails and the full potential of these sails has not been
realised yet. For example, a middleweight is already running a 5.5m up
to
15 knots of wind in America before changing to a 4m. This may seem
wrong to
you, but come the worlds he will most likely be using it and if he wins
the
class what are you going to say then! Everyone may need to get 5.5
meter
sail.
Secondly the cost of being competitive even locally has potentially just
risen $1200 – $1400 dollars which maybe fine for some of us out there
but
others are going to drop out of the sport due to the high cost. The BBC
has
already lost members to the increasing costs of competing and losing
more
members over 5.5m sails is not what I want. If you wanted to start
blokart
sailing competitively and brought a new kart you would be looking at a
cost
of $8000+ to set up. This is far to high in my opinion for a new sport
that
relies on the wind, which means you are not guaranteed to sail on any
given
weekend. Spare time is becoming more precious to all of us.
So a solution I can see to keep the sport of blokart strong in NZ clubs:
If you actually look at your club and say how many members from your
club
would go to the next world champs if they were held in Europe. Even the
BBC
with a strong travelling group of members may get 7 going in reality,
so
they can race at those events under the international equipment rules.
I
would suggest we redefine the performance equipment rules ideally for
NZ
within the NZBAI but at least at club level to excluded 5.5 meter sails
and
potential other performance equipment to make the competitive side of
the
sport a reasonable price to get into, keeping our clubs strong and
everyone
with a fair chance of winning at a reasonable cost at a local level and
maybe even the nationals.
So from the BBC point of view the question to be discussed at the next
committee meeting is a complete ban on 5.5's or ban for all, other than
supers and offer a financing deal to the supers to make sure all of our
supers have a 5.5 meter sail.
Something to think about
Richard